Sin?

[Ernest]

When I was raised the concept of Sin seemed to me to be quite cut and dried. What you did was either right or wrong. The right was a source of God's grace, while sin was therefore evil, contrary to God's will and was, without repentance a one way way to hell.

More recently, the concept of sin has been amplified to a much greater extent and the idea that we are born in Sin due to the fall, and that Christ came to save us from sin, through his life, death and resurrection. This comes in the various theories that Christ, at God's will sacrificed his life in atonement for our Sins.

There was an article recently in the Church Times, which discussed the various theories of atonement.

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/ ... pegoat-god

I had once held a view that a merciful God wouldn't allow suffering and eternal separation from him, and if he did, he wasn't a God that I could recognise. In those days, I was agnostic about God. I felt that if he was there, he hadn't done much to help his people, given the wars, suffering that went on. My own father died after great suffering, as did a friend, who took his own life because of it. So, any belief that I had was shattered and trust in God's mercy foundered on the rock of being unable to accept that suffering was actually a source of God's grace.

Obviously I have change those views completely, but I still struggle with the idea of God's wrath at our sin that he would kill his own Son ins such a painful and public spectacle. I accept that Jesus died for our sins, but, the deliberate sacrifice just seems to narrow a way of looking at it all.

Do others here struggle with the atonement theories, or, is it as all as cut and dried as I had thought in my youth?

[Joe Parrish]

I would like to put the blame on God for killing Jesus, but as we proclaim on Good Friday, 'crucify him', that makes me pretty much the guilty one, not God. We were just too much caught up with killing someone else as long as it was not us. For a while we focused on animals, but when we got the vineyard's owner's son in our hands, we thought we finally had the chance to get the vineyard for ourselves, for me, for humanity. It did not seem to work, that crucifixion. It didn't 'do the trick', we did not get the vineyard.

[Caroline]

For reasons that I couldn't for a second begin to explain I need to replace the posts that were made here since Joe's last post.

I tend to feel that as the Three in One, God rather sacrificed Godself by being born as human in the form of The Son rather than the Son and that The Spirit is that part of the Three in One that lives and works and moves in us still, if we let it, here on earth.

Perhaps that is simplistic though?

I tend to go back to the analogy of Water, Ice and Steam ... Three versions of the same thing.

So for me God intentionally and, knowingly of what brutality lay ahead, came here to earth in human form, so that we could trust that the biggest sacrifice that could be made, God'self, was made, so that we are forgiven without the need to make sacrifices of other things or animals or people. All we have to do is be sorry and want to be the best we can in God for the future.

That seems to me what loving parents would do and we are told God is Father or Mother.

Adding to those ideas - consider The Enemy as the source of everything bad and there's an explanation for why the world isn't perfect.

Thanks for your comments.

For Joyce, the enemy is the Devil or Lucifer the fallen Angel.

I know that we can't second guess God, but if he created all, than he also surely, must have created the Angels, including Lucifer. But Lucifer must have been flawed - perhaps human traits? He wanted to be God, and started the conflict which cast him down to be evil and the tempter which causes us to sin?

Free will comes into this, we have choices both good and bad to make, every day of our life. Which choice we make, points how we live and die. We can choose to live in Christ or in Lucifer, not a choice I would make, but the influence of his evil can be detected in every day life, particularly where wars and suffering come about.


If everyone knew Jesus and followed his teaching, Lucifer wouldn't get a look in in our lives - and the view is that Jesus defeated death once and for all at the resurrection and will finally cast Lucifer (crushed under his feet) when he comes again.

But we've waited over 2k years for that to happen, and Lucifer still seems to flourish, we need to change our choices for good, right now, not wait until its too late.

[Joe Parrish]

It seems God did not want to create only beings who would be absolutely under God's control. There is a sense of choice. And we chose satan over God. Only God can help us now. His Son did that for us.
Peace and Easter blessings,
Joe

[Ernest]

Thanks for saving the thread Caroline. Did you spell check our submissions at the same time?

Perhaps I won't post any more at the moment as this might be part of a discussion that we can hold on a wider exploration of od/Creation/Kingdom/Sin/Repentence/Forgiveness/Mercy which requires more thought on my part and perhaps a few prayers as well