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If you have an overwhelming urge to explore the weightier theological ideas, this is the place to seek fellow-travellers.
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Ernest
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Post by Ernest » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:53 am

Returning to the theme.

I note that Mr Corbyn is seeking an alliance to bring the government down, to put himself in place as a Caretaker PM to hold a general election on the Brexit question. He is seeking support from other part[y leaders and some individual Tories who disagree with the Government policy that a No Deal Brexit might be inevitable if the EU refuses to compromise.

This sound like opportunism to me, and naked ambition, which rivals that of Boris as he pursued his agenda to be PM. I don't doubt that Mr Corbyn means well, but at a time when we need parliament coming together in the interests of the whole of the UK, it sounds like causing more division, not less.

It appears that the Lib Dem's are prepared to talk as are the SNP, but I wonder if they are truly open to a Labour Minority Government attempting to negotiate with the EU, when their policy is to stop article 50 and to remain within the EU.

But precedents have been set as far back as 1931 and 1940 when there was division and coalitions were set up to face the affects of the great recession and than World War 2 - but as soon as things got better, the coalitions were soundly defeated in later general elections, having done their jobs.

What we need is a settled and confident government, willing to govern in the wider interest of the UK, not narrow party political positions, and that seems most unlikely to me at the moment.
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Post by Joyce » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:47 pm

Ken Clark was interviewed at length yesterday. Apparently he wasn't aware of any of the goings-on in the last fortnight because he'd been on holiday and cut himself off from the news. Sensible bloke. As a constitutional scholar, perhaps second only in knowledge to Her Majesty, he said,however, that what Jeremy Corbyn is proposing for himself is not legally possible, and he did - only when firmly pressed - outline the hypothetical conditions for, and functions of, a Government of National Unity.
It can't be led by a Leader of the Opposition ! It has to be set up for one purpose only and above all has to be temporary. He seemed to hope it wasn't going to happen - probably because it could fall to him to lead it.
If it did that really would be irony in a poisoned chalice. The main reason he's never been picked as P M has been because he's always been thought too 'pro-Europe' for public taste. 'Europe' was a different set up in his day, of course. I don't know what he feels about the one Britain's trying to escape from now.

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Post by Ernest » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:24 am

I heard him speaking on Radio 4 and sensible it sounded.

I wonder why he was never Knighted? Because surely his record of Public Service is one of the strongest. Others seem to be chosen for being there for a long time as "Yes" men or women.
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Post by Joyce » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:12 pm

Perhaps he's hanging on for The Garter ?

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Post by Ernest » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:21 am

:thumbs: :biggrin:
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Post by Ernest » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:17 am

I can't say that I am surprised by the PM making the decision to Prolouge Parliament, it has been signalled widely, although denied consistently.

This course of action despite denials, is clearly designed to close down debate and to remove the democratic right of all MP's to vote and to decide.

It does appear that forcing a general election, which could happen, to could lead to Brexit by default, and no deal at all. This seems to point towards some sort of right wing, populist coalition between Mr Johnson and Mr Farage, I despair on how parliament is conducting itself and our leaders (not with a mandate) are trying to subvert democracy.

Yes, the country voted to leave by a small majority, but most who voted leave, believed that a negotiated deal would protect jobs and the UK institutions like the NHS, but a no deal scenario wasn't on their radar at the time.

Perhaps I am naive in politics, but I can't remember any time in my life, where politics have been so high up in the mind of most people. You must have been living in a bubble if you haven't realised how risky the decisions being made, supposedly in our best interests are?

Now we wait on the sidelines while legal proceedings start, while groups of MP's get together to try to hold a separate debate outside parliament, while others in opposition talk of bringing the government down, provoking a general election.

Exciting times? I don't thinks so!

Worrying times? I do think so.

More prayers for commonsense and consensus are needed. :votive1: :votive1:

And waiting int the wings is the Spectre of President Trump, waiting to get his hands on the Crown Jewels of British Institutions.
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Post by Joe Parrish » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:42 am

:praying: Prayers for a good solution for the impasse :praying:
Peace and blessings,
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Post by Joyce » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:06 pm

The mind boggles.I wonder how many people, were there another referendum or an election, would even vote ? I feel like boycotting the whole thing and I suspect I'm not alone.
For my own part I was even more outraged in 1997 when Tony Blair did what Boris has done and the press didn't give a monkey's. He'd got one mean-spirited cold-hearted piece of legislation through by literally lying and then another with less ease. They both hurt the poor. Not for the first time I saw the covetous, mean face of Socialism ( They've all got more faces than the town hall clock ) followed by a closing down of Parliament straight after the State Opening before the euphoria of getting a new Government could die down. There was nothing like the present fuss then. The tabloid press hadn't finished building them up before knocking them down.

Doing it in May or June before the usual summer recess is a smoother political move than towards the end of August when what you're doing extends the silly season. Of course, we had a different Prime Minister two months ago. ( Scarpering before you can take all the blame shows another crafty face IMHO.)
The difference between then and now is in 1997 they were avoiding backlash over the first two of measures that affected our own poor, not the very constitution of the UK and 27 other countries.

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Post by Joe Parrish » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:12 am

Our daily Matins includes the phrases:

Let not the needy be forgotten,
Nor the hope of the poor be taken away.

Seems we indeed need to be praying that every day, day in and day out.
Peace and blessings,
Joe

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Post by Ernest » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:02 am

The PM displayed dogmatic energy in his short speech at the door of Downing Street last evening. It appears that commentators think that he was signalling a General Election on or around the 14th of October if he is defeated in Parliament this week by the coalition of those against a NO DEAL brexit.

We appear to still be in the age of division and no consensus, which isn't helped by former Political Grandee's dropping in their "penny's worth" and even actively intervening via the courts.

If we have a General Election before 31st of October, we might still have time to squeeze in a deal, but the spectre (for me) of Mr Farage and his motley collection of potential MP's gaining a foothold in Parliament or even sharing power with the Tories is something that I don't wish to contemplate for long.

It appears that our MP's and political parties prefer tribalism and political advantage not consensus on how to proceed. I am all for debate, but some of it is quite poisonous in the public sphere and its knock on effects encourage extremist opinions to be expressed openly as if we were all in tune with them.

:votive2: :votive2: :votive2:
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Post by Ernest » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:26 am

So, Parliament had its say and Boris lost.

Where we go from here is anybodies guess.

A general election looks the most likely outcome.

Prayers for something positive to come from all this. The country deserves at least that. :votive2: :votive2:
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Post by Ernest » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:16 am

Today there is thankfully no business in Parliament although the media circus continues. A major Tory has resigned, as has the PM's brother and many other Tory politicians have announced that they will not stand for election in the next General Election, which is likely to happen quite soon.

I am probably as tired and fedup with the antics in Parliament from all sides. But a glimmer of hope is the law to frustrate a no-deal exit, which hasn't gone down well with Mr Johnson, who is now facing the reality that Mrs May faced as she tried to get her bill through Parliament.

I hope and pray that the EU agrees to an extension to allow the General Election to go forward where I am pretty sure there will be a Brexit motion on the manifesto of all parties, which might or might not, decide the issue for the longer term.

One thing is sure is that any future government will be different from the one we have had for that last couple of years, but predicting how it will be formulated is a fools game. I hope for a coalition, not one focused on austerity, but one that will truly work in the National interest, including the devolved administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Ensuring some continuity of relationship with the EU and the rest of the world.

:minicandle: :minicandle: :minicandle: Prayers as always for commonsense and unity of purpose for our representative now and in the future.
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Post by Joe Parrish » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm

:praying: Let us keep praying for a good solution for the impasse. :praying:
Peace and blessings,
Joe

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Post by Ernest » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:52 am

Parliament is now suspended until the 14th of October. Mr Johnson says that negotiations are going on, but we see little evidence of that. Mr Johnson has had discussions with the Irish PM and the DUP in the North of Ireland.

He is proposing an "All Ireland" deal which would negate the need for the "BackStop" which has prevented Mrs May's deal getting through Parliament.

I just wonder whether any progress is possible when the different parties hold such widely differing views. And the Government is governing as a minority government so the general election will happen, but at a time of the Oppositions choosing.

Meanwhile while the EU reorganises and appoints new negotiators with perhaps differing views on trade and future relationships. I just feel helpless under the cosh as do many others. Held to ransom waiting to be able to vote again on the whole shebang, which only a general election can resolve.

:minicandle: :minicandle:
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Post by Joyce » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:34 am

You think a general election will resolve matters, Ernest ? It's not done so in the last fifty years. Why would it do so now? Of all the deals we've had over the decades, there have been dissatified groups. I like your optimism.Nothing will solve the issue but prayer. When we pray, we hope.
BTW, for those who don't know : the DUP is a party from Northern Ireland. It sits in the UK Parliament. The Parliament of Northern Ireland, Stormont, is currently prorogued. That happens from time to time when the parties can't agree to sit in one another's presence peacefully.
The north of Ireland is the area in the Republic of Ireland west of Northern Ireland. Ulsterfolk (aka 'Scotch Irish' in the USA ) are very patriotic British people mostly and they really don"t like it when people get those mixed up.

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Post by Pam » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:47 pm

Ernest wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:16 am
I hope and pray that the EU agrees to an extension to allow the General Election to go forward where I am pretty sure there will be a Brexit motion on the manifesto of all parties, which might or might not, decide the issue for the longer term.

<snip>

:minicandle: :minicandle: :minicandle: Prayers as always for commonsense and unity of purpose for our representative now and in the future.
The timing of the election isn't down to the EU - the difficulty Johnson is having in calling an election is because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act, passed by Cameron as a mechanism to keep the Tory-LibDem Coalition together. This took the timing of general elections out of the hands of the Prime Minister. requiring the agreement of the House of Commons. I think the general opinion is that Johnson doesn't want an election until after he has (somehow) pushed through Brexit, so there we are, stuck.

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Post by Joe Parrish » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:36 am

:praying: So let us continue to pray for those controlling the UK's fate. :praying:
Peace and blessings,
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Post by Ernest » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:53 am

Yes, prayer is needed, but we have to hope that Grace will intervene in the current impasse in Parliament and that Mr Johnson will actually manage to negotiate a deal which can move the whole business forward.

Division in the country is something which this has brought about and many people are at loggerheads with each other over something that David Cameron mistakenly believed would be rejected. He has acknowledged in his recent book his mistake, but his contrition is too little and too late.

A general election may not resolve the issues, but surely we have to hope that a consensus can be achieved through it, rather than more division. Whoever wins will have to negotiate any future relationship with the EU, and how close it should be. As close as possible in my view. :votive1: :votive1:
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Post by Joyce » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:10 pm

There won't be consensus in the population over this, short of a miracle - but we all know those can happen. Different people are affected by different problems or benefits they attribute to the EU. My dentists are driven crackers by GDPR, for instance, and according to them, so are all local businesses. It's certainly caused problems for me : I can no longer get the radio podcasts I subscribed to. I miss my Dr Laura badly.
Cameron allowed a referedndum on Proportional Representation because he was afraid the LibDems wouldn't stay in the coalition and the status quo won. Cameron allowed fixed term parliaments because the LibDems wanted them and they won. Cameron promised a referendum twenty years after Maggie's 'Let the people decide !' because he was afraid UKIP might win too many seats next time and the status quo ante by 40+ years won.
He was expecting the same result as the PR referendum.He was wrong. In a coalition a strange
decision got made and he couldn't go back on it when he had a majority. He's carrying the can now.
The rise of the UK Independence Party among a British public normally indifferent to European matters, apart from occasional surges of outrage, happened because Cameron's seven predecessors didn't get us enough deals that suited us well enough, and resentment slowly built up until a new party could cash in. He shouldn't shoulder all the blame.
UKIP was getting a following. The resentments and fears were enough to bring out voters who had never bothered about Europe before. Having a box to tick for the sake of this country focussed minds in a way polls for electing Members of the European Parliament never had.
Things had reached the stage when the public, especially in certain parts of the country, were getting afraid.
They remembered we stayed in the EEC despite butter being given away in Post Offices, milk pumped down mine shafts and French farmers burning our lambs, and they knew the heavily expanded EU would do nothing about crime waves committed by East and Central Europeans. Market towns in the East Midlands have had to go from part-time magistrates' courts to full-time ones, to 24-hour ones to cope with the extra offenders. I was frightened by one myself on Sunday. It's not scaremongering it's happening. Had Cameron been successful over stopping the influx of undesirables, I'd have bet that British voters would have gone back to caring next-to-nothing about Europe most of the time. Resigning was the sort of thing expected of politicians,even Prime Ministers, under the circumstances. It's only in retrospect Cameron's resignation's being called chickening-out. The public put faith in another bossy woman to shout our corner and she failed. She was up against 27 other leaders, not 9. Our own Parliament didn't accept what the other 27 had offered her and we are where we are.
The issues around European farming died down, and so might the grumbles about sovereignty have if we could have gone back to being particular about whom we let in.The fears being stirred up, rightly or wrongly,about what happens if we leave are about trade and employment. That goes to show that had 'Europe' stayed that way and not gone on passing laws we didn't like, there'd be few if any worries about it. As things stand, because of differing experiences around the country, leaving or remaining concerns so many issues there will continue to be divisions unless we get a stupendous deal or are presented with an even better alternative.

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